“Is drinking bad?” A discussion with a student
Michael
Why is
drinking/getting drunk bad
David W.
Pendergrass
Good question. I know
of no particular teaching of Jesus that explicitly prohibits it and tells us
why. Yet, based on the New Testament, I'd say that getting drunk is immoral
because (1) it violates the requirement of God to have self-control (said
repeatedly in the Bible) and (2) it is nearly impossible to love God with all
our hearts, souls, strengths, and minds, and to love our neighbors as ourselves
(Mk 12:28-31) if we're drunk. It's also possible that being drunk ruins your
Christian witness (Paul speaks about a similar situation in Romans and 1
Corinthians). My last two reasons are not biblical, but still matter: it can
lead to an addiction, which enslaves us. Finally, because a drunk looks like a
moron. J
Michael
But when I have been
drinking I absolutely have my clearest moments with Jesus and god and am
actually a really good advocate on behalf of Christianity. I spread the word to
my friends when the liquor Is flowing, and I'm being 100 percent honest.
David W.
Pendergrass
lol! and I
appreciate you being honest! If you mean that you are an advocate when you've
had some drinks, then I don't see anything immoral about that (of course, there
are legal ramifications, http://www.tabc.state.tx.us/laws/underage_drinking_laws.asp).
That is, drinking alcohol is not inherently immoral/sinful.
If you mean that you are an advocate for
Christianity when you're inebriated, then I'd say you're making a
consequentialist argument (remember that one? when the end justifies the
means). If that's the argument, then I don't find it compelling because you're
violating the virtue of having self-control and are almost certainly coming
across differently than you perceive.
In that scenario (and we can change it to weed
or any other substance), I'd say, "Would Jesus talk about the Kingdom of
God to me while drunk or high or wasted?" Immediately, I think that
question seems absurd. Of course not. "Would Jesus get drunk or high just
so that he had 'clarity' and boldness to talk about the KoG?" Of course
not.
So, while I'm not doubting your clarity or advocacy,
I'm suggesting that the METHOD of being an advocate--in this case, I'm assuming
after heavy drinking--is immoral.
So, I'd say in this case, the ends do NOT
justify the means. Why? Because (1) it violates the commandment to have
self-control and because (2) I cannot fathom Jesus doing such a thing.
Michael
im not saying it
justifies the means, i think the fact that its fun, makes me feel good, and
brings people together justify it enough, im just saying my advocacy is just a
pretty postive externality, or additional benefit. im also not saying i dont
have awesome moments of clarity when im complete sober as well, im just
questioning why suppress or demean the act of drinking? i know that when
christians(especially my former school) take on ethic of believing drinking is
a sin, and should result in punishment(or in our schools case
suspension/expulsion) it doesnt drive people to God, it drives them away. when
i was in an enviornment where what I did with my body was accepted, I felt
comfortable, and as a result my relationship with jesus and god improved tenfold.
how do you expalin that?
Michael
also, cannabis is a
natural, god made thing. it has the tendency to make some people idle or lazy,
but so does putting a 50 inch tv screen in your living room. im not denying it
can lead people to bad stuff sometimes as a result of being exposed to a bad crowd,
but is smoking marijuana really that inherently bad(other than the fact that it
is illegal, and that you break the law/disrespect authority when you do it)?
David W.
Pendergrass
Hey Michael,
There are several things here. Here are my
reflections:
(1) "its fun, makes me feel good, and
brings people together justify it enough" -- Michael, we can't use these
as criteria for what's moral. I could use these descriptions for a whole host
of immoral choices: Nazi genocide, rapists talking together, thieves, drug
addicts, and on an on. In no way, in a Christian worldview, could these be
considered descriptions for what would justify an action.
(2) "im just questioning why suppress or
demean the act of drinking?" -- I'm not sure who you're speaking against here,
maybe people you've encountered. I've already stated in a previous exchange
that I see nothing inherently immoral with the act of drinking itself. Jesus
drank wine. Rather, it is getting drunk that is immoral.
(3) "it doesnt drive people to God, it
drives them away." -- That may be true. Of course, schools must do such
action typically, because it violates legal rules (and they could be sued).
Now, on this issue, I hate to see people driven away from God just over the
issue of drinking. On the other hand, I have no problem at all with people
being driven away from God if they are offended because they are told that
being drunk is immoral. Why? Because God's moral commandments are good. I'm
well aware that people hate religion, and Christianity in particular, because
they don't like being told "that's immoral to do." Murderers,
rapists, thieves, gossips, practicing homosexuals, the proud, etc.: we all have reason to feel some childish
anger toward God. Who likes being told "no"? In any case, we don't
make moral decisions in life because it "drives them away." Again,
that's a consequentialist ethic that I don't find compelling because it would
allow us to do any immoral thing we wanted, as long as it kept people liking God.
If that's the case, we should reject Christianity altogether and stop preaching
a message of repentance and confession of sin . . .
(4) "when i was in an enviornment where
what I did with my body was accepted, I felt comfortable, and as a result my
relationship with jesus and god improved tenfold. how do you expalin
that?" -- Our relationship with God is not based on how well you accept
what you "do with your body." If you were a pedophile hanging out
with other pedophiles, you'd be accepted. Our relationship with God is also not
based on whether or not other people accept our behavior. As psychological
creatures, we feel good when accepted. That's not good or bad (I think), it
just is. BUT, this has nothing to do whatsoever in deciding if something is
moral or immoral. Gang members have utter acceptance, even when they steal,
rape, and kill. Feelings of acceptance have nothing to do with the teachings
and example of Jesus. Jesus's example and instruction supersedes all feelings
and intuitions we might have. Why? Because He's the Messiah. If He's not, then
nothing I've said matters at all. We're just evolved mammals wanting to spread
our seed and conquer the weak . . .
(5) "cannabis is a natural, god made
thing. . . . but is smoking marijuana really that inherently bad?" --
Cannabis does grow naturally, as does cocaine and sugar. Of course, just
because something occurs in nature, it doesn't mean we should avail ourselves
of that thing. Sugar is natural, but surely it's not moral to eat sugar in a
way that damages our health. The same is true of cocaine and marijuana. Again,
I see nothing inherently immoral with using a drug as long as it does not
violate the moral commandment not to lose self-control. Otherwise, I cannot
love God with all my heart, soul, strength, and MIND and my neighbor as myself.
Finally, like I said before, humans must ask the question: "Would Jesus smoke,
drink, inhale, shoot up this drug for fun?" I think the answer is clearly
"no."
And no matter how much it offends people or
turns them away, truth is truth. No matter how offended a person is to the
truth that 2+2=4, it doesn't change the veracity of that statement. We all have
to make up our minds: either Jesus is the authority for all things moral or
He's not.
Peace,
Dr. P
Dr. P
Michael
All great points
I knew my logic had holes just wanted to have
someone explain them to me
Regardless, I'm still going to drink and smoke
and love Jesus with all my heart.
Sorry if that offends you at all, just being
honest
I've just been thinking about this stuff a
lot, wanted to know your input seeing as its a lot more educated than mine lol
Thanks gentlemen. Good arguments, honestly stated. It always boils down to "how we determine what is good." Those questions have inspired philosophy since the beginning of time.
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